CH:「頭目」這個詞對您有甚麼意義?
 
What does the term “chief” mean to you?
 
Chief Hagu, 哈古: 頭目的責任很重啊。不管環境的變化與外在的因素，絕對不能動搖。我們要堅持傳下我們祖先所照護的使命。做一個頭目，必須要有智慧；解決不了的事情，頭目常需要出面來想辦法解決。頭目出現，需要給人安全的感覺。
 
A chief carries important responsibilities. Regardless of environmental or external changes, a chief cannot waver under the pressure. We must be firm in passing down the missions and values that have been protected by our ancestors. The trait of wisdom is necessary for a chief; during conflicts that cannot be solved, the chief will usually be expected to show up and find the best solution forward. When a chief is present, they should be able to give their people a sense of security.
 
CH: 您認為台灣的政府在保護原住民文化這方面做得夠多嗎?
 
Do you think the Taiwanese government is doing an adequate job at preserving indigenous cultures?
 
Chief Hagu, 哈古: 最早期我們覺得他們對原住民沒有什麼幫助。後來，大家開始都有讀書了，知識都有開始平等了。漸漸的，政府就對原住民比較重視了。
我覺得不管哪一個民族，我們都需要尊重。有的人想:這個民族人少，不想了解他們。因為一些外來因素也就影響我們部落的傳統生活，製造分裂。
很早以前，我們很多所擁有的東西都被像是除舊換新了。我們的歷史都沒有了，語言也快要消失了。他們現在在推動國語，我們後代講我們的語言音調都變了，而且也很少跟老人家在一起。現在的小朋友早上就得去朝會，不跟父母一起吃飯。父母為了改善生活，拼命加班，很晚才回來。小孩也要補習。這個語言就沒有了。
我很堅持在大場面和辦傳統儀式時，我開典一定要講母語，絕對不講國語。
 
In the past, we felt as if they have done nothing to support indigenous communities. Though in time, as people received better education, they gained better knowledge of the world. As a result, the government gradually came to value indigenous communities more.
 
I believe that all cultures deserve to be respected. There are people who think this culture is an extreme minority, so I do not want to spend effort to understand them. This, paired with other factors, affected our tribe’s traditional way of life, and caused division.
 
A long time ago, many things that we had owned were “renewed” and rid of. So now, much of our history is gone and our language is about to disappear too. Now they promote speaking Mandarin, resulting in our descendants to develop a morphed pitch when speaking our language. Plus, our young ones do not spend much time with the elders anymore; they attend morning gatherings early in the day and do not eat their meals with their parents. Then the parents—wanting to improve their livelihoods—work overtime and return home very late. The children also go to cram school. Soon, the language is gone.
 
When our tribe organizes big events and traditional ceremonies, I insist on opening the event by strictly speaking our mother tongue, never Mandarin.

 
CH: 您能給一些政府試圖保護原住民文化的例子嗎?
 
Can you provide some examples of the government attempting to preserve indigenous cultures?
 
Chief Hagu, 哈古: 他們有在幫我們推動我們的母語教室。但我們人口少，一班才一兩個學生怎麼教啊?
 
They have helped us promote our language classroom. But our population is so small, how can we teach a class with only one or two students?
 
CH: 您認為台灣的現代化與漢化有使卑南族南難以保存傳統嗎?
 
Do you think that the modernization and Sinification of Taiwan has made it hard for Puyuma people to retain their culture?
 

 
Chief Hagu, 哈古: 環境都會變嘛。但是改變的都是物質性的東西啊，像車子，房子，這種東西一定都會改變。但我們的語言是不會改變的，年紀儀式也不會變。
日本人還在的時候有跟我們說過「我們一走，你們就會被別人牽著鼻子走。」日本人還在的時候，漢人是不許竟來我們部落的。日本人一走，漢人就進來了，原住民沒想到他們都是有目的的，只是想來侵占土地。像我國小的時候有個漢人來跟我們說「你們把這些墳墓裡的骨頭全部挖起來，等一下我們會收購。」所以我們就挖起來，用水洗乾淨。但是他們沒有來，只是想捉弄我們而已。
 
Environments change of course. But what really is changing are the material objects like cars, houses, etc. Material objects are everchanging, but our language will always remain the same, our coming-of-age ceremonies also.
 
When the Japanese were still around, they told us, “Once we leave, somebody else is going to come in and lead you on.” When the Japanese were still around, the Han Chinese people were prohibited from entering our tribal lands. So naturally, once the Japanese left, the Han people entered. The indigenous people did not suspect that they had any malicious intentions, did not suspect that all they wanted was to invade our land.
 
When I was in elementary school, a Han person told us, “Dig up all the bones in your tombs, we will buy them later.” So we dug them up and washed the bones with clean water. But the “buyers” never came, only then did we realize that they were cheating us.
 
CH: 那您認為政府該歸還土地給原住民嗎?
 
Do you believe that the government should hand out land reparations for indigenous communities?
 
Chief Hagu, 哈古: 本來就該這樣做。
 
Of course.
 
CH: 卑南族有許多對音樂方面很有天賦的成員，例如張惠妹。對卑南族而言，音樂有什麼意義或重要性呢?
 
The Puyuma have many musically talented members, like A-mei, for example. To the Puyuma, what is the meaning and significance of music?
 
Chief Hagu, 哈古:對我們來說，音樂發出去就彷佛呼喚祖先。我在做雕刻的時候也是一樣的，只是比較安靜。張惠妹的表演我也都看過了，她是我兒子的同學。
 
To us, producing music is almost like a call to our ancestors. It is the same for when I sculp sculptures, just quieter. I have seen all of A-mei’s performances; she used to be my son’s classmate.
 
CH: 所有的十個卑南族部落裡，只有這個部落(建和部落)沒有建設任何教堂。為什麼?
 
Out of the ten Puyuma tribes, only your tribe (Jianhe tribe) does not have any churches established. Why?
 
Chief Hagu, 哈古: 其他宗教和信仰者進來時，說我們的祖靈沒有意義，沒有根據。我們國家過去各地沒有那麼多人可以發放救濟品，所以就委託教會去發，他們利用物資來誘惑我們這裡的人。你不去他們的教堂就拿不到救濟品，說你祖靈是惡魔，拿你的知識份子當傳教的工具。
 
宗教不是不好，是人為了傳教的理由利用不好的手段。我們不信他們的教，但是我們不是也很有尊嚴嗎?
 
When other religions and believers entered our land, they told us that our ancestral spirits were meaningless and false. In the past, our country did not have sufficient human resources to widely distribute relief supplies so instead, they relied on churches to do so. They used material goods to lure our people. If you did not go to their church then you wouldn’t receive any relief supplies, then they’d denounce your ancestral spirits as demonic, and manipulate your intellectuals into doing missionary work for them.
 
There is nothing bad about religion, what is bad is using immoral means to preach a religion. We do not believe in their gods, but don’t we still live with pride and dignity?